Author | Topic | AXEMAN2415 Guitar Weenie
USA 740 Posts | Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 16:31:49
| Jesus Joshua 24:15 Newsletter - January 2007
www.jesusjoshua2415.com
The Band: Bobby Shepherd: Drums Steve Pettit: Lead Vocals Jay Woody: Bass Will Rauser: Guitars
The Crew: Mark Bussell: Webmaster, Computer Tech Jim Bishop: Promotion, PR Tammy Woody: Video Production, Wardrobe Juli Rauser: Booking
Editor's Lead
Welcome to January 2007! I wanted to greet all of you with something positive and hopeful, as we have now entered a new year.
Unfortunately, this lead in is somewhat bittersweet. I have been pondering some thoughts, and they are not all pleasant in their outward appearance. Nevertheless, I wish to speak to you about something that I find an important issue for Christians in this day and age.
Two or three weeks ago, as I was listening to a news commentator, I heard about a recent poll conducted in Europe and, I believe, here in the United States. The question posed was along the lines of, "Do you feel that Religion is a threat to society?" or some such nonsense as that. Interestingly, of all of the Europeans polled, 2 out of 3 (thats' 66%, folks) believe that Organized religion is a bad thing for society. Fortunately, the numbers are smaller in the U.S., with 1 in 3 (33%, roughly) sharing that sentiment.
Why do I bring this point out? Well, this goes along with some devotional material that I have been studying and pondering. I shall relate my thoughts.
Oswald Chambers writes, in his book "My Utmost For His Highest", an article entitled "The Focus of our Message". The Scripture verse he leads with is an interesting one, to say the least. Chambers' text is the words of Jesus Himself, as written in Matthew 10:34: "I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Ironic choice of words coming from the Prince of Peace. I have often pondered the irony of Jesus' statement here. Almost seems contradictory. Almost.
Chambers writes these words: "Never be sympathetic with a person whose situation causes you to conclude that God is dealing harshly with him. If a person cannot go to God, it is because he has something secret which he does not intend to give up - he may admit his sin, but would no more give up that thing than he could fly under his own power. It is impossible to deal sympathetically with people like that. We must reach down deep into their lives to the root of the problem, (read this part carefully - ed.) which will cause hostility and resentment toward the message. People want the blessing of God, but they can't stand something that pierces right through to the heart of the matter.
"If you are sensitive to God's way, your message as His servant will be merciless and insistent, cutting to the very root. Otherwise there will be no healing. We must drive the message home so forcefully that a person cannot hide, but must apply its truth."
You might be asking yourself, 'What does this have to with the European Poll answers?' Well, for starters I am inclined to believe that the reason why most people who actively oppose Religion in general - and Christianity in particular - has to do with the very thing that Chambers reveals in this article.
I suppose that if you were to individually query those who partook in the European Poll, they may answer that Christianity has too many hypocrites in its ranks (unfortunately, that is true)or that Christians are way too judgmental (alas, that part is more true than even I care to admit), but I believe that a clearer assessment would reveal that most people choose to believe those excuses precisely because nobody particularly enjoys conviction from God. I don't necessarily think that many who claim judgementalism as a reason for rejecting Jesus are victims of said crime. I believe it has become a fashionable excuse, one that makes that party out as a victim rather than truly facing their need for salvation. Personally, I think that Christians don't have to say one word, that our very existence is enough to power conviction, and thus imply a judgementalism that doesn't really come from us to begin with.
Here is where the "I did not come to bring peace but a sword," idea stems from. Jesus clearly recognized that not every man would receive His message, and many would violently oppose it. That said, there are many in this world today who passively (if not aggressively) share the sentiment of opposition, if only because the Message of Christ and His salvation and Lordship stands in direct opposition to the nature of man and his rebellious behaviors. That which is meant to unite mankind in light and love is creating division, much as a sword would, between those who choose to live in freedom (in Christ) and those who wish to remain chained in their sin.
I believe it was last October, in a news report Elton John stated emphatically that if he were a world leader, he would do all that he could to abolish organized religion (i.e. Christianity). Really, Elton? What about the freedom of expression you so valiantly claim to endorse? I should not be surprised, though, as the Message of the Gospel of Christ is diametrically opposed to his particular lifestyle choices. Somehow I doubt ole Elton sat in a church pew somewhere and caught the brunt of some Pharisaical church congregate. I could very well be wrong, but I think Mr. John has issues with the Gospel because it doesn't fit conveniently into his particular world view. And I am certain he is not the only one who has that feeling. I believe that the European poll I cited above is peripheral evidence of that.
Now, of course, Elton John is not a mover and shaker in the political realm. However, I am sure there are those walking the halls of earthly power and dominion who share Elton John's opinion on this matter. And I suppose my question is a simple one: What if there is someone who rises to a position of power and influence that shares John's viewpoint?
Don't believe me? History bears this truth out. Let us all be reminded that Hitler was elected to power by the German people. In the process of Hitler solidifying his power, he made sure that he had control of the nations churches. Hitler appointed pastors and clergy who would extend no opposition to his "Final Solution" and his hateful rhetoric.
Russia's Stalin did the same exact thing. God poses a radical burden upon the lusts of men, and to accept the mere presence of God (in the form of His saints) is to accept conviction upon the human heart. God stands in the way of human sovereignty, and is a constant reminder of our need for redemption. Thus, anything that stands in the way of personal appetites, be it lust for the physical(sexual misconduct), the material(greed), or of power (dictatorial or otherwise) is to be eradicated form all forms of culture and societal influence.
Does this sound far fetched? I only wish it were. Yet I am hearing more and more of such questions being raised (such as the above poll). That disturbs me. 30 years ago, no such polls would have been conducted, no such questions even contemplated. Nowadays, questions like the European Poll are routinely being given airtime and ink print. I wonder why? Is it because Christians actually stand for something?
In the book of Genesis, we read the story of Lot. For those of you not familiar with this story, Lot lived in the city of Sodom. Lot had lived there for several years, probably decades. Two angels were sent to Lot's house, by God, to warn Lot that God was going to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gammorah, because of the cities' inhabitant's perverse wickedness. A soon as the men of Sodom saw that there were two new males in the city, those men went to Lot's front door and demanded he send those men out to be sodomized. Lot told the men of Sodom, "Don't do this wicked thing..." and the men of Sodom reacted with indignation and outcry. They demanded to know what gave Lot the right to dictate to them about matters of morality. The men of Sodom actually said Lot was being judgmental toward them.They ranted "How dare this outsider tell us how to live our lives!"
As a matter of fact, the actual Scriptural passage says, in Genesis 19:9, says, "'Get out of our way',...'This fellow (meaning Lot) came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them (meaning the two angels posing as men)."
In other words, the men of Sodom did not like being called on their wickedness, and they cried, "Judgmental!" It is amazing to me how little man's attitudes have changed over the centuries. Man does the same thing today. Dare to challenge wickedness, or simply declare that there is an objective standard, or even mind your own business and live upright in the will of God, the Word being your standard, and there will be those who shout, 'How dare you throw your faith at me! How dare you judge me!"
This is the "sword" that Jesus was referring to. Truly it divides, and creates conflict. The very presence of Jesus in His people creates a spirit of conviction and tension among those who choose to reject Him. People want us to tell them what their itching ears want to hear. Unfortunately, we as Christians cannot do that. We are obligated to the truth no matter how much that truth hurts. A physician who tells you you are healthy when your body is wracked with cancer is not a good physician. There are many people who refuse to go to the doctor because somehow if you ignore a problem it means the problem isn't there. Meanwhile, the condition still exists. We human beings have an amazing capacity for self-deception. We can tell ourselves anything, and make ourselves believe anything.
I am aware that this subject is not a very pleasant way to usher in the joy of the New Year. However, it is my desire to have us think soberly about life and keep things in perspective. I truly hope that your New Year's celebrations have been joyous and festive. It is also my desire to have you consider the possibilities of the coming year. I want us to be optimistic, but also consider reality.
News and Events
- As some of you are aware, Bobby and Will, had an interview with the good folks at the Christian Rock And Fellowship chat room last December 9, 2006. They had a blast talking and joking around with the CRF folks, and look forward to another great time in the near future. You might be asking yourself, "How is this relevant news?" Well, I am glad you asked! This interview was recorded, and the result is posted here on the official Jesus Joshua 24:15 website. For those of you with broadband or other high speed connections, the entire interview can be downloaded in one big chunk. Or, if you have dial-up(ugh!), Our webmaster/broadcast engineer has taken the liberty of breaking the interview into 6 smaller sections. Either way, it is 2 hours (thereabouts) of unrestrained lunacy... er, I mean meaningful dialog with two players from Jesus Joshua 24:15. Learn about the band in greater detail, and have fun doing it!
- A special Thank You goes out to AnonJr (his name shall remain anonymous...get it?Anonymous?), our Webmaster, Computer guru, Audio Engineer, Roadie, and whatever else we can rope him into (without pay of course!). Anon has outdone himself with many duties, way too numerous to mention. But there is one in particular that deserves a big Kudos. AnonJr. Engineered our interview with Christian Rock and Fellowship. Anon is the one who edited and compressed the Interview with CRF, and he provided the media formats and the location, as well as the high speed connection( whew!) for a successful interview. Thanks, AnonJr.!
- The entire band also did an interview with the Montyman from Recovery Radio, an internet radio station. You can go to Jesus Joshua24:15 on MySpace, and check out the "Recovery Radio" banner, and the interview with the MontyMan will be broadcast in January. (Check "Recovery Radio" schedule for times.)
- Again, I would like to announce a Jesus Joshua 24:15 live show, at "The Warehouse" February 17 in Clinton ,Tennessee, along with the bands Brim and Eden's Way. Doors open: 7:30pm est. Cover: $8.00
- As of this writing, Jesus Joshua 24:15 has had a consistent #1 ranking on the numberonemusic.com in the Christian hard rock genre, for the last several months.
Guitar Points from Will
This month, I decided to take a different angle with our current subject, intervals. As we have studied, intervals are simply the measurable distance between tones in a musical scale. We have studied some of those measurements in previous columns. This time around, I would like to examine the intervals of the Fourth and the Fifth.
If you remember, we measure every distance from the Root (R) or one (1) of the scale. The reason that these intervals are important is they are the essential building blocks of "Power Chords". Power Chords are not really chords, but are called chords because they function as such in place of actual chords, because certain intervals do not lend themselves to clear sounds when played with major amp gain or distortion.
Power Chords, or power 5th chords (in most tabbed music, the power chord is is often labeled as a "5" chord,i.e. "E5" for an "E" power chord or "D5" for a "D" power chord.) utilize one basic interval; the 5th (Duh!).
In the key of "E" it is spelled like so:
Ex.1
R1 2 3 4 5 6 7 R1
E F# G#A B C# D#E ("E"Major scale)
|-P5-|-P4-|
1 5 1
E B E (Octave note)
On the fingerboard, this looks like this;
Ex.2
E B E E5 B E E5 E B E E5 E B E E5
1E|-------------|----0--0---|------------|-------------|
2B|-------------|--0----0---|------------|------5---5--|
3G|-------------|-----------|------9---9-|----4-----4--|
4D|-----2----2--|-----------|----9-----9-|--2-------2--|
5A|---2------2--|-----------|--7-------7-|-------------|
6E|-0--------0--|-----------|------------|-------------|
You do not always have to play all 3 notes (the Root, the 5th, and the Octave). You can simply 2 note it.
For example;
Ex.3
E B E5 B E E5 E B E5 E B E5
1E|-------------|----0--0---|------------|-------------|
2B|-------------|--0----0---|------------|-------------|
3G|-------------|-----------|------------|----4-----4--|
4D|-------------|-----------|----9-----9-|--2-------2--|
5A|---2------2--|-----------|--7-------7-|-------------|
6E|-0--------0--|-----------|------------|-------------|
In the key of "A", the same interval spacing applies. Let's look at it from the perspective of the fretboard;
Ex.4
R1 2 3 4 5 6 7 R1
A B C#D E F# G# A ("A" Major scale)
|-P5-|-P4-|
1 5 1
A E A (Octave note)
Ex.5
A E A A5 E A A5 A E A A5 A E A A5
1E|--------------|----5--5---|--------------|-----5---5---|
2B|--------------|--5----5---|-----10---10--|---5-----5---|
3G|------2----2--|-----------|---9------9---|-2-------2---|
4D|----2------2--|-----------|-7--------7---|-------------|
5A|--0--------0--|-----------|--------------|-------------|
6E|--------------|-----------|--------------|-------------|
If you notice, the Root does not always have to be on the bottom (or bass) of the chord. As long as the intervals are present, the order of intervals does not matter. Let's build a power chord vocabulary.
Ex.6
Gb5 Ab5 A#5 Db5 Eb5
E5 F5 F#5 G5 G#5 A5 Bb5 B5 C5 C#5 D5 D#5 E5
1E|------------------------------------------------|
2B|------------------------------------------------|
3G|------------------------------------------------|
4D|-2--3--4---5--6--7--8---9--10--11--12--13--14---|
5A|-2--3--4---5--6--7--8---9--10--11--12--13--14---|
6E|-0--1--2---3--4--5--6---7--8---9---10--11--12---|
Ex.7
A#5 Db5 Eb5 Gb5 Ab5
A5 Bb5 B5 C5 C#5 D5 D#5 E5 F5 F#5 G5 G#5 A5
1E|-------------------------------------------------|
2B|-------------------------------------------------|
3G|-2--3--4--5---6---7--8---9--10--11--12--13--14---|
4D|-2--3--4--5---6---7--8---9--10--11--12--13--14---|
5A|-0--1--2--3---4---5--6---7--8---9---10--11--12---|
6E|-------------------------------------------------|
Ex.8
Eb5 Db5 Ab5 A#5 Db5
D5 D#5 E5 F5 F#5G5 G#5A5 Bb5 B5 C5 C#5 D5
1E|------------------------------------------------|
2B|--3--4--5--6--7--8--9--10--11--12--13---14---15-|
3G|--2--3--4--5--6--7--8--9---10--11--12---13---14-|
4D|--0--1--2--3--4--5--6--7---8---9---10---11---12-|
5A|------------------------------------------------|
6E|------------------------------------------------|
Ex.9
(No Octave note present, just 2 notes.)
Gb5 Ab5 A#5 Db5 Eb5
E5 F5 F#5 G5 G#5 A5 Bb5 B5 C5 C#5 D5 D#5 E5
1E|------------------------------------------------|
2B|------------------------------------------------|
3G|------------------------------------------------|
4D|------------------------------------------------|
5A|-2--3--4---5--6--7--8---9--10--11--12--13--14---|
6E|-0--1--2---3--4--5--6---7--8---9---10--11--12---|
Ex.10
(Here is an example of using a two note power chord, with the 5th on the bottom)
Gb5 Ab5 A#5 Db5 Eb5
E5 F5 F#5 G5 G#5 A5 Bb5 B5 C5 C#5 D5 D#5 E5
1E|------------------------------------------------|
2B|------------------------------------------------|
3G|------------------------------------------------|
4D|-2--3--4---5--6--7--8---9--10--11--12--13--14---|
5A|-2--3--4---5--6--7--8---9--10--11--12--13--14---|
6E|------------------------------------------------|
Here is an illustration of something very interesting. These power chords (in Ex. 10) have the 5th interval in the bass, or on the bottom. What is interesting is that the distance from the 5th back to the Root is an interval of a 4th. Look at Examples #1 & #4. Each one shows the interval distances from the Root (or 1) to the 5th and back. The distance from "E" to "B" is a 5th;
Ex.11
|-P5-|
1 5
E B
The distance from "B" to "E" IS A 4th;
Ex.12
R1 2 3 4 5 6 7 R1 (B Major scale)
B C# D#E F# G# A# B
|--P4---|
|-P4-|
1 4
B E
So, "B" is the 5th of "E", in the key of E Major and "E" is the 4th of "B", in the key of B Major
Interesting. This shows how the intervals and chords can be interchangeable with each other. It also can illustrate how names and references can be confused. Take your time to grasp some of these concepts, as they will help you understand future studies.
A Final Thought
Final Thoughts for January
As sure as the New Year has just begun, it will slip into history. I am sure that many of you felt the same as I did this last Christmas. I was like, "What? Christmas is already here? It seems like it just left!" Well, folks, as I get older (no comments from those of you who know me personally!) I notice that the time just flies by. My children are getting bigger and smarter, and soon they will be on their own (Well, not too soon). And too soon I will be old and gray. Our time on this earth is but a vapor. I saw some of my extended family this last Christmas, as I do every year. This year, I noticed the hair a little grayer, the skin a little more wrinkled, the eyes more tired looking, and the bodies a little less agile. I am unsure of how many more years we have together as time and the elements take their toll. Surely we must cherish the time we have. We also must remember the sense of urgency we must have for the Kingdom of God and its message. If indeed life is but a vapor, then we must be ever vigilant in our presentation of Jesus in our lives. The Scripture tells us that Now is the time of Salvation, not later. If the Scripture is urgent in its message to us, then we who are the children of God, should do likewise. | Edited by - AXEMAN2415 on 01 Jan 2007 17:14:19 |
| Fishingd Starting Member
USA 27 Posts | Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 16:59:54
| Thanks Will..Great Newsletter.. | Peace Dale | |
| AXEMAN2415 Guitar Weenie
USA 740 Posts | Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 17:15:31
| Thank you ,kind Sir! | "C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
| michael322006 New Member
USA 97 Posts | Posted - 01 Jan 2007 : 19:19:56
| get newsletter. A real eye opener concerning issues in the political field. | And when all is said and done I can go home :D | |
| Shredhead Junior Member
Australia 322 Posts | Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 04:25:38
| WOW ! The new site looks cool Anon , well done .
Great newsletter Will... it leaves me with a few questions though . 1.Should we as Christians be concerned about this 'tide' of unbelief , or is it prophecy being fulfilled ? 2. If we are , & I believe we are , what are some practical steps we , as the Body of Christ , can take to turn it ? 3.Of the people surveyed , do you think they're opposed to 'religion' , or Christianity ? I believe there's a difference .In other words , are they opposed to the Hollywood version of religion , or a faith built on a relationship with Jesus ? I'm want to believe that they've never seen the latter . | but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| AXEMAN2415 Guitar Weenie
USA 740 Posts | Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 19:01:44
| I will attempt to give you my opinion on those questions...I am not sure I have the answers! 1.I am not sure we should be concerned, with one caveat. Politically, I think we should be, because those of us who live in democratic states are having our rights and privileges summarily and slowly eroded and eclipsed with a secular humanistic dogma. Having said that, and I accept the possibility of being wrong here, we as Christians believe that God knows what He is doing, and that He is in ultimate control. As far as prophecy being fulfilled, well, that does not mean we should roll over and play dead, either. Clearly, not everyone will accept the Gospel...Jesus tells us that. Yet He still commanded us to go and make disciples. The Bible says that it is "God's will that none should perish", although many will ultimately do so. So why bother? Well, because God said so, that's why! I cannot always understand God, but I can always have oportunity to obey Him.
2.I agree, we are clearly aproaching the Last Days, if we aren't in them already. Can we turn it? I sincerely doubt it. But just like world hunger will never be eradicated, we should still feed the hungry. Will that turn the tide of hunger? Only one meal at a time. Does that answer help? Probably not...lol
3. This answer is a little more involved. The short answer is...probably both! I think a lot of the people surveyed were probably generalizing, and not specifying any particular religion. But I would submit to you that most to most non-Christians (those who don't know period) the Holywood image and the relational aspect of real genuine Christianity are synonamous. I would agree that, as you have said, they've never seen the latter. But I also contend that when people, in general, say the word "Religion" they certainly have a mental image of Christianity. As a matter of fact, if you ask most people what they think about Jesus, usually, the first response is, "Oh, I'm not religious". That word has become both a substitute for the term Christianity, and at the same time all-inclusive to all religions, of which, to the uninitiated, are all the same, anyway.
I am sure I have left you with more questions than answers. Sorry about that. | "C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
| Shredhead Junior Member
Australia 322 Posts | Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 02:08:27
| "I am sure I have left you with more questions than answers. Sorry about that." No you're not lol .
Thanks Will , I agree we shouldn't give up ,if someone wants to starve , that's their decision , but I would hate to think someone starved because I didn't feed them . However , I'm trying to address the 'compel them to come in' , rather than make them disciples .We can't begin to make disciples , if we can't get past the unbelief , which , I suspect is the reason 66% of people surveyed said that religion should be disposed of .I agree we have our share of hypocrites {a reason I hear frequently down here } , but I think it was Chesterton that said , 'never judge a philosophy by it's abuse ' .
This misunderstood hypocrisy is a contibuting factor to people's unbelief . People like Elton John get upset with the Church , because we preach Love , but also condemn sin . They view the Love that could save them as a constraint , because they misunderstand Love .
I guess my question is , how does one demonstrate the relational aspect of our faith , to eradicate the myth of religion ? Isn't that what Jesus did ?
| but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | Edited by - Shredhead on 03 Jan 2007 06:12:22 | |
| Captain Blasto Cappuccino Junkie
USA 212 Posts | Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 05:32:19
| While prophetic events will come to pass it may well be up to our generation whether or not it happens in our lifetimes. What if the route to future fulfilled prophecy is maleable and just as Hezekiah was able to have a direct effect on his future we likewise through prayer and supplication can affect ours. Just a thought. Let us also remember that though Sodoms sins came up before the Throne of God ultimately it was not the level of their sin that brought their destruction but the lack of righteous people in the city that resulted in it's destruction. To call down the judgement of God on our world for it's sins is most certainly an indictment against the Church. | President of the Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Shredhead Junior Member
Australia 322 Posts | Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 06:37:20
| Interesting thoughts Cptn B .But isn't it true that God has appointed the time of His return , & therefore the prophetic events that lead up to it ? I think if we don't heed His voice , He'll use someone else . Gods' will, will be done , we can be a part of it , or not . My prayer is to be a part of it .
"Let us also remember that though Sodoms sins came up before the Throne of God ultimately it was not the level of their sin that brought their destruction but the lack of righteous people in the city that resulted in it's destruction."
So the reason God doesn't destroy the world today is because His righteous are still in it ? I thought God said he wouldn't destroy Sodom if He could find enough righteous people , only to demonstrate the citys' sinfulness .
"To call down the judgement of God on our world for it's sins is most certainly an indictment against the Church."
I'm not sure I know what you mean here .Surely all we can do as believers is live the Truth , if the world rejects that Truth , as it has done in the past , that's their choice , not our fault ?
| but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| AXEMAN2415 Guitar Weenie
USA 740 Posts | Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 13:58:40
| I think Capt. B has an interesting point. I suppose I am trying to seem congruent here, but I do see the implication that somehow we believers have certain authority (through prayer) to preserve (sorry, I couldn't find a more appropriate term) the meat. Jesus does refer to us as salt. Salt in His day was not just for flavor but for preserving perishables. In order for salt to do its job, it had to be rubbed into the perishable. It had to be worked into all of the nooks and crannies. Ultimately, the meat spoiled, but that didn't mean it shouldn't have been preserved. I suppose (opinion again...) the thought could be applied to the situation we currently find ourselves.
I recall the story of Elijah, who, after standing firm and slaying the 400 prophets of Baal, ran with tremondous fear from the evil queen, Jezebel. God told him that He had preserved a bunch of folks, who refused to bow their knee to Baal. I believe God told Elijah that the reason He hadn't destroyed the land was because of the remnant...of course, naturally, I am not looking at my Bible, so I may have my facts mixed up. But I seem to recall a statement by God about such an event....
As far as prophetic events being fulfilled in a set time...well, That is true, but let us consider Judas. Surely he was prophesied as the "One doomed to destruction"...many consider that Judas was created for his betrayal... I don't agree. I think Judas chose to become the fulfillment of prophecy, and said prophecy could have been fulfilled by someone else. Now before anyone starts stoning me for heresy...lol...consider a person's free will. I believe that the prephecy of Christ's betrayal was going to absolutely be fulfilled, but as for who would...that's anyone's guess. Judas had a choice, and he made it.
Truly, Shred, if the world rejects the truth, it is not our fault. But it is also true that God told Abraham, upon Abraham's intercession on behalf of Sodom ( actually, on behalf of the righteous that may be living there), that if He could find just 50 righteous people, He wouls spare the entire city. Then it went to 40, then,eventually 10. Of course, we all know that there weren't even 10 righteous folks there, and so did God, by the way. But God let Abraham be an intercessor for the city. Hmmm...God said He would alter His plan if...hmmmm... God told Jonah the same thing. And God did relent on His destruction of Nineveh, if only for some 20 years. So maybe, if we act as intercesors, instead of passively allowing folks to stay in ignorance, do we help usher in a "stay of execution" so to speak.
I think that is what Capt. B meant in his statement. Or I could be wrong, but I doubt it...I 'm wrong so infrequently...lol | "C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
| Shredhead Junior Member
Australia 322 Posts | Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:04:43
| I've never looked at it that way before , interesting . I'm aware of Isaiah 'standing in the gap' , but I believe that gap has now been filled by Christ . I'd always read Sodoms' story , as God showing His righteousness , showing His righteous people a little more of His character , by proving He has given the city every possible opportunity to repent , so that He wouldn't destroy it . After all , He knew there were no other righteous in the city , He shows His sovereignity by showing His people what He already knew.
I agree with you re Judas , he made his choice .I also believe this can be transposed to prophecy today . We make a choice to be a part of it { Gods' will } , or not . I'm sure if Ananias had said " I'm not going within a cooee of Saul" , God would've used someone else ,Ananias would've missed the blessing .
"So maybe, if we act as intercesors, instead of passively allowing folks to stay in ignorance, do we help usher in a "stay of execution" so to speak." Yep , I agree . Getting back to my question then , your answer would be to remain as an intercessor for the unsaved ? The only problem I see is , a stay of execution is only prolonging the inevitable . Yes , we're told to make disciples , we're also told to prepare the way . It's this 'compelling' people to come in , & preparing the way that interests me , when 66% of people don't want to know the Way .
Imagine you have a warehouse full of XK8 Jaguars , brittish racing green , silver GT stripes... 18" wheels .... walnut interior......sorry , got a bit carried away lol . You're trying to give them away , but everyone only wants to drive a rusted out old Datsun , with no brakes... down a mountainside . How do you convince them to take the Jag ? | but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| AXEMAN2415 Guitar Weenie
USA 740 Posts | Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:26:51
| quote: magine you have a warehouse full of XK8 Jaguars , brittish racing green , silver GT stripes... 18" wheels .... walnut interior......sorry , got a bit carried away lol . You're trying to give them away , but everyone only wants to drive a rusted out old Datsun , with no brakes... down a mountainside . How do you convince them to take the Jag ?
Hmmm...offer them 0% financing and dealer incentives......lol | "C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
| Captain Blasto Cappuccino Junkie
USA 212 Posts | Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 02:02:41
| Please understand that I am no scholar and I humbly request that you read this knowing that I sincerely thirst for Truth. There are questions that have caused controversy within the ranks of the church and I in no way desire nor intend to diminish anyones personal beliefs. Since we have now broached the subject of predetermination vs. free will I have a couple of questions... I may be wrong but it seems that the idea of predestination subscribes to the notion that some people are given an "exclusive" gift of faith and others are not and are simply created to be tares. I do not pretend to know everything and these questions have been around for a long time but doesn't the Bible reveal or at least imply God's will to be that none would perish? God, through His Son provided a sacrifice perfect enough to be capable of achieving that goal so why would he only grant that only some would recieve this gift of faith? If we emphatically say that God's will will be done and we have no impact upon it then it would seem that none should perish unless, of course they were created to perish which would seem to contradict His implied will. It almost seems like a cop-out to say that if I don't do my assignment then someone else will come along and do it. Maybe the reason there were not enough righteous people in Sodom was that Lot did not fulfill his assignment in "preaching so that they could hear" and subsequently the city was destroyed. Maybe nobody else was assigned to Sodom. What if we each similarly have an assignment that no one else can do and if we blow it some will be destroyed? Also... we are not saved by our works of righteousness as we all know but by grace through faith which is the gift of God that none may boast. Yet are there not works of faith that glorify God? It seems that every time faith is stirred it takes a "work of faith" to set things in motion. Is not our very "confessing with our toungue unto salvation" contingent upon our acting upon that faith that is stirred up within our heart? Do we all have the gift of "potential faith" that becomes "kinetic" when exposed to the catalyst-like preaching of The Word? None are without excuse because of the evidence in creation which will be exhibit A when that fearful day comes but We have the message burning in our hearts and the means to communicate it clearly to others combined with a responsibility. I too pray that we do all that we can to stand firm and fulfill our part in God's plan. | President of the Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Shredhead Junior Member
Australia 322 Posts | Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 04:32:38
| I'm with you Capn B , as I believe we all are , earnestly searching the depths of God to find Truth we can apply to our lives in an effort to better glorify Him . I'm certainly no scholar either.....except maybe in early Van Halen song titles & lyrics lol . Nor do I wish to foist my opinion on others , I think the written word can appear to do that sometimes .
I don't believe in predeterminism , I believe in free will .If predetermanism were in action , why would the devil be called the enemy of our soul ? Why would we face temptation ? The devil may as well do nothing because we're either destined for Heaven or hell , so why tempt the righteous , what ultimate end could it change ?
Was it integral to Gods' plan that Jesus was betrayed ? According to prophecy , definately . Does that mean God created someone to betray Him ? Not necessarily . God knows that we as humans will choose to turn from Him & follow our own ways , just like Adam & Eve did & just like Judas did . God , however , used that to confirm Jesus as the Messiah . God knows the hearts & minds of men , He simply gave Judas over to the desires of his own heart .Did it have to be Judas ? In my opinion , no , Judas was probably just the first one with his hand up .
"If we emphatically say that God's will will be done and we have no impact upon it "
I never meant to imply this , forgive me if I have . We do have an impact on Gods' will because we choose to be a part of it , if we choose not to , then He will find someone else . I'm struggling to remember the scripture , but wasn't there someone God told to do something & they wouldn't , so God warned them He wouldn't tell them again & that He would choose someone else ?
I also agree with you that a faith which isn't dead should bare works of righteousness , not unto our own salvation , but certainly as a result of it . I don't want to get to Heaven & then have to go 'dig up' that which God has placed in me , I want to walk through the gates jinglin man !
"What if we each similarly have an assignment that no one else can do and if we blow it some will be destroyed?"
Wouldn't that make God unjust ? If He destroyed someone because we failed ?
"We have the message burning in our hearts and the means to communicate it clearly to others combined with a responsibility." Amen ! Jesus said 'compel them to come in ' , Peter did that by preaching followed by signs & wonders , Paul reasoned , as well as signs & wonders . This however was in a culture teeming with all sorts of gods . We still have people bowing down to idols today , but they don't see them , & according to that survey , 66 % of people don't want anything to do with God . How then do we compel these people to come in ?
| but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| AXEMAN2415 Guitar Weenie
USA 740 Posts | Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 13:36:04
| I am not certain we can compel anyone to come in. Jesus said that " No one can say 'Lord' unles the Holy Spirit enables them. Having said that, I am not inclined to belive that God only wills certain people to obey Him.
I am with Captain Blasto, and certainly Shred, that God's will is that none should perish, but all come to salvation (eternal life). The Scripture not only implies this, but directly states as such,and as a matter of fact, those are Jesus' own words. However, that is God's perfect will not His permissive will. The first is God's desire and what He is working toward, but the second is God's response to man's choice and will. I know they seem to be contradictory, but they are no more in conflict like God's unconditional Love, and His unconditional Holiness.
God's unconditional Holiness demands justice, but God's unconditional Love demands mercy. Justice and mercy are not the same, so God would appear to be divided. Yet, we believers know that cannot be possible. So there must be more to this than appears to the human intellect.
So what are we left with? To me, the variable is truly man's sovereign will. Notice I did say man's sovereign will. That is where the conflict truly is. God wills that none should perish, yet we know that many have and many will, despite that will. Does that mean God is not God? No, unfortunately, it means that Man is not God, and we had better stop acting like we are. When we put our sovreignty over that of God's, we subvert His will, only because God allow us to choose to do so. He could very well make us obey Him, but that would not be love. And that would contradict God's nature. God cannot contradict Himself.
Does any of this analysis mean we understand all of this? Not at all, we are asking questions that Theologians have been asking for centuries. | "C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | Edited by - AXEMAN2415 on 04 Jan 2007 13:39:38 | |
| Shredhead Junior Member
Australia 322 Posts | Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 18:52:05
| " The Scripture not only implies this, but directly states as such,and as a matter of fact, those are Jesus' own words. However, that is God's perfect will not His permissive will. The first is God's desire and what He is working toward, but the second is God's response to man's choice and will."
I've never heard a better explanation , precise , succint , elemental , crucial........so unlike Will lol . | but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| AXEMAN2415 Guitar Weenie
USA 740 Posts | Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 23:18:47
| quote: I've never heard a better explanation , precise , succint , elemental , crucial........so unlike Will lol .
Hmmm...(in a Darth Vader voice) "I find your lack of faith disturbing..."
(now you feel fingers grasping your throat)...
lol | "C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | Edited by - AXEMAN2415 on 04 Jan 2007 23:20:27 | |
| Captain Blasto Cappuccino Junkie
USA 212 Posts | Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 00:25:27
| "No, unfortunately(?)(!), it means that Man is not God..." Hmmm.... Is that Jupiter or Will's head... LOL | President of the Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Captain Blasto Cappuccino Junkie
USA 212 Posts | Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 00:26:30
| Sorry... I couldn't help myself... | President of the Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Shredhead Junior Member
Australia 322 Posts | Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 02:05:47
| I hear Darth Vader , but I see Dark Helmet from Spaceballs . Love ya maaaate | but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| AXEMAN2415 Guitar Weenie
USA 740 Posts | Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 12:08:26
| Yes...and it is a big helmet...lol
About the size of Jupiter... | "C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" | |
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